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	<title>Comments on: Why I joined the Greens</title>
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	<description>Colin Jacobs in, on and about the Internet</description>
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		<title>By: An Idle Dad</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-655</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[An Idle Dad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the response BTW. I&#039;ve been checking it out and most of what you say is indeed true.

It is very possible I&#039;ll be voting Greens too come the election.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the response BTW. I&#8217;ve been checking it out and most of what you say is indeed true.</p>
<p>It is very possible I&#8217;ll be voting Greens too come the election.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-487</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 May 2010 05:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Idle Dad,

Firstly, on the ETS: We&#039;re going to hear a lot from the ALP about how the Greens &quot;let the perfect be the enemy of the good&quot; and didn&#039;t support their CPRS. Here&#039;s what I&#039;ve learned.

Firstly, the Government wouldn&#039;t negotiate with the Greens or consider any of their amendments to the legislation as presented. Instead, they took their already woefully inadequate policy to the climate-skeptics party, watered it down over months of negotiations, and then failed to get it passed even with the Liberal senators crossing the floor. At the end of this process, the policy was simply too inadequate for the Greens to support.

The second issue is the &quot;get something in now, then improve it later&quot;. Legal advice rendered to the Greens says that if the scheme was passed, the carbon credits granted to the polluters would become their property, legally speaking, and under the constitution these permits could not be taken away without compensation running into the billions. Richard Di Natale talks about this line of attack here: http://richarddinatale.com.au/node/27

In the meantime, the Greens have been proactive and constructive by presenting an interim carbon tax proposal which has been ignored by the Government. And really, it&#039;s hard to imagine the labor scheme reducing our carbon emissions at all, let alone drastically as we need to do.

As for a Green negotiation/policy success, take the stimulus bill as an example. The Greens negotiated in good faith with the government, and won some amendments which were both environmentally sound and job-rich such as the local greens job package.

See: http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.au/content/greens-negotiate-economic-stimulus-package

Finally, as to the single Greens MP-to-be (I hope) in the lower house. It&#039;s one thing to pressure the ALP into supporting progressive legislation when they start facing a Greens Senator from most states in the upper house. Imagine the pressure when the MPs themselves start to be in danger of losing their own seats! When a respected, sitting cabinet minister is ousted from his own seat, you can bet they will sit up and take notice. Of course, the end game is to achieve a substantial say in Parliament and play a role in government, but the process of getting there will hopefully exert some pressure on the ALP to bring them back left. 

In fact, if Tanner falls, I&#039;m sure it will. So, despite the fact that I like and respect Tanner, I&#039;ll be handing out how to votes for Adam Bandt.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Idle Dad,</p>
<p>Firstly, on the ETS: We&#8217;re going to hear a lot from the ALP about how the Greens &#8220;let the perfect be the enemy of the good&#8221; and didn&#8217;t support their CPRS. Here&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve learned.</p>
<p>Firstly, the Government wouldn&#8217;t negotiate with the Greens or consider any of their amendments to the legislation as presented. Instead, they took their already woefully inadequate policy to the climate-skeptics party, watered it down over months of negotiations, and then failed to get it passed even with the Liberal senators crossing the floor. At the end of this process, the policy was simply too inadequate for the Greens to support.</p>
<p>The second issue is the &#8220;get something in now, then improve it later&#8221;. Legal advice rendered to the Greens says that if the scheme was passed, the carbon credits granted to the polluters would become their property, legally speaking, and under the constitution these permits could not be taken away without compensation running into the billions. Richard Di Natale talks about this line of attack here: <a href="http://richarddinatale.com.au/node/27" rel="nofollow">http://richarddinatale.com.au/node/27</a></p>
<p>In the meantime, the Greens have been proactive and constructive by presenting an interim carbon tax proposal which has been ignored by the Government. And really, it&#8217;s hard to imagine the labor scheme reducing our carbon emissions at all, let alone drastically as we need to do.</p>
<p>As for a Green negotiation/policy success, take the stimulus bill as an example. The Greens negotiated in good faith with the government, and won some amendments which were both environmentally sound and job-rich such as the local greens job package.</p>
<p>See: <a href="http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.au/content/greens-negotiate-economic-stimulus-package" rel="nofollow">http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.au/content/greens-negotiate-economic-stimulus-package</a></p>
<p>Finally, as to the single Greens MP-to-be (I hope) in the lower house. It&#8217;s one thing to pressure the ALP into supporting progressive legislation when they start facing a Greens Senator from most states in the upper house. Imagine the pressure when the MPs themselves start to be in danger of losing their own seats! When a respected, sitting cabinet minister is ousted from his own seat, you can bet they will sit up and take notice. Of course, the end game is to achieve a substantial say in Parliament and play a role in government, but the process of getting there will hopefully exert some pressure on the ALP to bring them back left. </p>
<p>In fact, if Tanner falls, I&#8217;m sure it will. So, despite the fact that I like and respect Tanner, I&#8217;ll be handing out how to votes for Adam Bandt.</p>
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		<title>By: An Idle Dad</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-486</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[An Idle Dad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 May 2010 05:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d like to support the Greens except I just can&#039;t shake the feeling they would rather watch the world burn than compromise a little.

They had the chance to pass an ETS when two Liberal Senators cross the floor to vote with the government but didn&#039;t. Surely the Greens know they&#039;d never have gotten a ETS with as strong targets as they wanted. Better to get one in and then work on improving it. Better to get one in and then give the Federal Government something to point at when negotiating with the rest of the world &quot;Look, we&#039;ve done our bit, and we&#039;ll do more if you come on board&quot;. In case the Greens haven&#039;t noticed or don&#039;t understand the reality, Australia will not be able to solve global warming alone.
Instead, we&#039;ve got nothing and we&#039;ll get nothing for years to come. Instead, the Federal Government has nothing when negotiation - the whole world is now saying &quot;You go first&quot;. Hardly a policy success on the Greens part or a win for the environment.

I could go on about immigration and how many times they&#039;ve change (admittedly, they&#039;ve returned to the policy I support - a population target close to or smaller than our current population) but the comment gets too long.

What is the point of high principles and feeling righteous when nothing gets done? Sure, current Labor is a let down but they are the ONLY party that will get things done.

Can you point to an actual Green policy success? A successful negotiation? I&#039;m not being a troll here, I&#039;m genuinely interested in what you qualify as a Green party success. Is the end game to win or pressure Labor in the lower house to force a coalition?  After all, ONE seat in the lower house?

I&#039;m a swinger voter, and I&#039;m ready to swing out far left - but only if there is a point in doing so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d like to support the Greens except I just can&#8217;t shake the feeling they would rather watch the world burn than compromise a little.</p>
<p>They had the chance to pass an ETS when two Liberal Senators cross the floor to vote with the government but didn&#8217;t. Surely the Greens know they&#8217;d never have gotten a ETS with as strong targets as they wanted. Better to get one in and then work on improving it. Better to get one in and then give the Federal Government something to point at when negotiating with the rest of the world &#8220;Look, we&#8217;ve done our bit, and we&#8217;ll do more if you come on board&#8221;. In case the Greens haven&#8217;t noticed or don&#8217;t understand the reality, Australia will not be able to solve global warming alone.<br />
Instead, we&#8217;ve got nothing and we&#8217;ll get nothing for years to come. Instead, the Federal Government has nothing when negotiation &#8211; the whole world is now saying &#8220;You go first&#8221;. Hardly a policy success on the Greens part or a win for the environment.</p>
<p>I could go on about immigration and how many times they&#8217;ve change (admittedly, they&#8217;ve returned to the policy I support &#8211; a population target close to or smaller than our current population) but the comment gets too long.</p>
<p>What is the point of high principles and feeling righteous when nothing gets done? Sure, current Labor is a let down but they are the ONLY party that will get things done.</p>
<p>Can you point to an actual Green policy success? A successful negotiation? I&#8217;m not being a troll here, I&#8217;m genuinely interested in what you qualify as a Green party success. Is the end game to win or pressure Labor in the lower house to force a coalition?  After all, ONE seat in the lower house?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a swinger voter, and I&#8217;m ready to swing out far left &#8211; but only if there is a point in doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 22:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for stepping back into the past, my point was that we wouldn&#039;t need to - we could solve the problems without making that sort of sacrifice to our standard of living. On the other hand, if we don&#039;t act now, our standard of living is certain to fall in the future as portable energy becomes scarce and a changing climate wreaks havoc with our environment and economy.

The &quot;Manhattan Project&quot; sort of renewable energy project you mentioned is exactly the sort of thing we need, and the sort of brave vision that I don&#039;t think we will get.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for stepping back into the past, my point was that we wouldn&#8217;t need to &#8211; we could solve the problems without making that sort of sacrifice to our standard of living. On the other hand, if we don&#8217;t act now, our standard of living is certain to fall in the future as portable energy becomes scarce and a changing climate wreaks havoc with our environment and economy.</p>
<p>The &#8220;Manhattan Project&#8221; sort of renewable energy project you mentioned is exactly the sort of thing we need, and the sort of brave vision that I don&#8217;t think we will get.</p>
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		<title>By: David Crafti</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Crafti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 13:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good post Colin, but one comment:
it&#039;s not possible to just step back to a 1970s standard of living. The world has about 3 billion more people now, and growing, so that just wouldn&#039;t work. Plus there are the major changes that society has undergone, such as development of the Internet, which consumes a large amount of power.
I think that part of the problem can be solved not by stepping back into the past, but by moving forward into a future that solves the power crisis with innovative technology, such as solar, wind, fuel cells and the like.
Imagine an NBN-sized project to develop solar power in the desert. For $43B, we could provide power for about 4 million homes, or half the nation.

These are personal musings only and not an official Pirate Party policy.

Regards,

David]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post Colin, but one comment:<br />
it&#8217;s not possible to just step back to a 1970s standard of living. The world has about 3 billion more people now, and growing, so that just wouldn&#8217;t work. Plus there are the major changes that society has undergone, such as development of the Internet, which consumes a large amount of power.<br />
I think that part of the problem can be solved not by stepping back into the past, but by moving forward into a future that solves the power crisis with innovative technology, such as solar, wind, fuel cells and the like.<br />
Imagine an NBN-sized project to develop solar power in the desert. For $43B, we could provide power for about 4 million homes, or half the nation.</p>
<p>These are personal musings only and not an official Pirate Party policy.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>David</p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 06:40:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Erika. I&#039;ve discovered the Greens can be short of resources and perhaps that&#039;s why you didn&#039;t get a reply. I&#039;ve learned The Greens are highly sympathetic to refugees, and have some Refugee-related events in the works - I&#039;ll keep you posted on the details.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Erika. I&#8217;ve discovered the Greens can be short of resources and perhaps that&#8217;s why you didn&#8217;t get a reply. I&#8217;ve learned The Greens are highly sympathetic to refugees, and have some Refugee-related events in the works &#8211; I&#8217;ll keep you posted on the details.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Erika Stahr</title>
		<link>/2010/politics/why-i-joined-the-greens/comment-page-1/#comment-450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Erika Stahr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 06:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=357#comment-450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have thought of leaving the ALP and joining the Greens but keep emailing them
to ask what they intend to do about refugees and asylum seekers and I never get a reply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have thought of leaving the ALP and joining the Greens but keep emailing them<br />
to ask what they intend to do about refugees and asylum seekers and I never get a reply.</p>
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